У надувного медведЯ: несерьезное обсуждение трилогии "Хоббит"

[Hellga]

Запостила в Дэйле первую часть комментариев к расширенке - до получения Гэндальфом посоха от Радагаста, включительно. Ох как много перлов и фэйспалма! Давайте там и пообсуждаем.

http://www.henneth-annun-ru.net/foru...ml#post1610195

[Riba]

Сообщение от Hellga

Запостила в Дэйле первую часть комментариев к расширенке - до получения Гэндальфом посоха от Радагаста, включительно. Ох как много перлов и фэйспалма! Давайте там и пообсуждаем.

http://www.henneth-annun-ru.net/foru...ml#post1610195

Ух ты! А давайте!

[Riba]

Так как в Обсуждуй я решила не ходить (по кругу скакать не хочу), то вот тут отвечу, можно?

Сообщение от Nelt

Новый мем: "схоронился в застенках", аналог "отдохнул под наркозом".
Застенки - место пыток, тюремных истязаний; тюрьма, лагерь для заключенных. (с)

Как знать! Мож его Бард, по-союзнически, за дезертирство временно в застенки Дейла поместил. А потом, как всё закончилось, выпустил? Ну или шоб Трандуил Азога не опередил, например...

Спорное заявление.

- Доктор, что со мной?
- У вас тяжелая жизненная ситуация. Следующий.

Праститя

 

Сообщение от Лора

Ну а с ним у него не подростковые разборки
С детсада, видимо, конфликт

О, эти битвы за компот без яблок! Эти бои за горбушечку! Получи, гаттакой! Свободен форева!
Тогда сталбыть - этот конкретный освобождённый труженник Востока - и есть изменённый покорёженный Сауроном эльф?

[Nelt]

Сообщение от Riba

Так как в Обсуждуй я решила не ходить (по кругу скакать не хочу), то вот тут отвечу, можно? Как знать! Мож его Бард, по-союзнически, за дезертирство временно в застенки Дейла поместил. А потом, как всё закончилось, выпустил? Ну или шоб Трандуил Азога не опередил, например...

Прям так и вижу я эту попытку Барда временно поместить Трандуила в застенки на глазах у эльфийской армии.

Праститя

http://s014.radikal.ru/i327/1511/13/82c7746e4548.jpg
 

Вот у Гэндальфа реально она.

[Hellga]

Там чем дальше, тем прекраснее. Во всех проблемах Торина виноват Ауле, потому что допустил ошибки в изначальном проекте.

[Addams]

Сообщение от Hellga

Во всех проблемах Торина виноват Ауле, потому что допустил ошибки в изначальном проекте.

Он экспертизу у Эру прошел, значит Эру тоже частично виноват

[Hellga]

Меня сама концепция доставляет. Воистину, с такими друзьями и врагов не надо... по крайней мере, я не помню чтобы кто-то с "эльфийской" лавочки считал гномов големами, которым свобода воли в принципе не положена, только по вложенной программе (дефектной) и могут действовать. Интересно, как при этом они, такие дефектные, могут оставаться образчиками Истинных Королей, Настоящий Мужчин и вообще?

[Riba]

Сообщение от Nelt

Прям так и вижу я эту попытку Барда временно поместить Трандуила в застенки на глазах у эльфийской армии.

-Владыка, тут поблизости такие уютные застенки - загляденье, пройдемте! Схоронитесь в лучшем виде!

Сообщение от Hellga

Там чем дальше, тем прекраснее. Во всех проблемах Торина виноват Ауле, потому что допустил ошибки в изначальном проекте.

Надо бы запросить ссылку на рабиновичей, которые вот то вот напели.
Не, а че, не Ауле? Ну не Торин же, в самом деле, виноват в своей тяжелой жизненной ситуации. (С) Ауле накосячил, а Торину перед Эру теперь отвечай.

[Лора]

Может Настоящий Король и Мужчин должен быть слегка дефектный?

[Хенвен]

Сообщение от Лора

Может Настоящий Король и Мужчин должен быть слегка дефектный?

Конечно, так же его жальче.

[Nelt]

Сообщение от Лора

Может Настоящий Король и Мужчин должен быть слегка дефектный?

"Пулемет. У меня большой пулемет!"
ОБВМ. У него должен быть ОБВМ!

[Лора]

Мы дефектные! Мы ваши друзья! (с)

[Hellga]

Сообщение от Лора

Может Настоящий Король и Мужчин должен быть слегка дефектный?

Вспомнила статью Лоры Бочаровой. Да, пожалуй, он обязан быть дефектным, можно даже не слегка.

Главный герой должен быть эльфомгномом-мужчиной. Иначе, никакого интереса. Идеальный образ, который можно долго обсасывать, пока работа застопорилась, который можно наделить лучшими чертами характера, вашим личным представлением о красоте, доброте, поэзии, душевной чуткости, мужестве, мудрости и всем тем, чего вы так и не нашли в грубом недалеком животном, гордо именующим себя человеком.

Сразу берите быка за рога. ОНА должна найти его раненным на поле боя или сброшенным со стен темницы, или замерзающим в снегах, или выброшенным волной на берег моря - одним словом неполноценным и едва живым, вдалеке от его привычной жизни - жизни невероятной и страшной - потому что если бы он был на своем месте, полноценный и вполне здоровый - он никогда не посмотрел бы на тот мусор, которым, в сущности, является ОНА. Такова обычная логика, и пренебрегать ей нельзя. Для развития же действия надо, чтобы герои так или иначе встретились и зануждались друг в друге. Единственный выход - временно лишить вашего Эльфагнома дееспособности.

[Riba]

Сообщение от Hellga

Интересно, как при этом они, такие дефектные, могут оставаться образчиками Истинных Королей, Настоящий Мужчин и вообще?

Ну здрасти! Они ж просто в "тяжёлой жизненной ситуации", а так они по умолчанию белые и пушистые ИстЕнные и Настоящные.

Сообщение от Hellga

Вспомнила статью Лоры Бочаровой. Да, пожалуй, он обязан быть дефектным, можно даже не слегка.

Если просто "слегка" - то несчитово. Надо чтоб наотмашь. Шоб руку от лица не отнимать. Вот тогда - да, тогда само то - Вождь и Король.

[арве]

Девочки, а ауди... к ВКБК дальше выкладывать? Или пока не надо?

[Riba]

Сообщение от арве

Девочки, а ауди... к ВКБК дальше выкладывать? Или пока не надо?

Выкладывать-выкладывать! Если не очень сложно, конечно.
Я добралась на почитать их.

[Sange]

В тему отношений Трандуила и Гали

 

[арве]

Ну... тогда так по шесть в день и буду. Когда остановиться или притормозить - намекните. И - дальше-то вообще переводов нет (во всяком случае, мне не встречались). Так что вы-то все, конечно, читайте. Но было бы желательно с англонечитайками, типа меня, радостью тоже делиться. А то - выкладываю, а сама-то...

Ну вот... и взаимоотношения Трандуила и Гали - тоже ни фига не поняла (только милым полюбовалась, гы)

[арве]

Итак.
Седьмая.

Chapter 7 ~ "Keep it secret, keep it safe"
PJ: The book is very different in this whole area. And in a way it was tricky to figure out how to get Bilbo on the road, how to make the Ring stay behind with Frodo, what Gandalf's attitude was. It's- The book is kind of vaguely similar but very, very different and we grappled with this. We basically wanted to make the film a little bit more... tense, I guess, to keep the pressure on, more so than in the book. And so we concentrated on making the Ring and the threat of the Ring foremost in the way that these scenes play themselves out.
PB: It was very difficult to give the audience a sense that Gandalf had - up until this moment - had no suspicions about this Ring and that it was just a trinket that Bilbo had found. Maybe a trinket that he had always been uneasy about, but nothing more than that.
But, I think, if you remember back to the prologue, very soon Peter wanted a sense that something had been activated. And that's what we tried to set up in the prologue, that the time was coming soon. And that is actually what happens at the end of this scene. You get a sense that evil has awoken and the Ring, almost like a machine, has been activated.
PJ: Here is Ian McKellen in a small little set and here is Elijah in his big set.
PB: But that- In that shot, they're both in the same set? Or have you- Do you have Ian up upon a hutch(?) ?
PJ: Yeah, he was up on a box and then we did all sorts of tricks. I mean, that's not Elijah there, that's little Kiran. He was only four foot tall. A lot of it is pretty low tech, quite simple.
 

[арве]

Восьмая.

Chapter 8 ~ "The Account of Isildur"
PJ: This is the big shot of Barad-dûr where a miniature, I guess about 15 foot tall, was used. The lava is just computer-generated. And I wanted to do one big shot that just made you feel the size and expanse of this huge, big tower. It's under construction. I mean, when you see this tower in the second film- In the third movie it's actually finished.
This is only like a third of the way as high as what it ultimately reaches. The idea here - It's a little bit difficult to tell - but the idea here is that the orcs are still building it. People think that this is the Black Tower but it's actually Minas Morgul. It's a different castle that we see again in part three.
Now, the city of Minas Tirith that we're looking at here plays a big role in the "Return of the King", the third of the movies. And here we'll be seeing a lot more of this city. About half the movie, I guess, probably takes place there.
PB: It was interesting for Ian McKellen in this shot when he's walking through the streets of Gondor. He hadn't put that costume on for probably about six months. He'd been Gandalf the White for a very long time.
PJ: Hopefully they've washed it.
PB: Yes - Possibly not, because he was very much into being this grumblier? Gandalf the Grey if he could be.
We discussed whether we should actually title this as Gondor. In the end we decided just to let it flow.
PJ: Yeah, we thought a lot about whether we should throw subtitles up on the screen, you know, to identify places. Little captures sort of popping up and we just thought ?? it could be a little bit cheesy and we decided not to do it. I think, as long as people can follow the story they don't need to know that this is Minas Tirith, that this is the ancient, you know, the archives of the citadel. I think the pictures of these tell you what's going on.
This is a very tiny little section of the book. It's referenced in the council of Elrond in the book where Gandalf talks about going to Minas Tirith and Denethor lets him spend some time studying in the archives to try to find out information about the Ring. And so we took it from this little mention in the Council and we actually put it up at the beginning of the film here because we thought it would be quite an evocative scene.
This was a scene that we shot after filming finished. It was a little pick-up that we did, because we felt we just wanted to show the riders, the black riders on the borders of the shire, just getting close. It's just to start up the tension.
PB: And a little bit of movie trivia here: I do believe that one of our actors voiced that black rider. I don't know if you know who it is but it's actually Andy Serkis who also voices Gollum. We wanted to get a great voice. We were recording some Gollum-dialogue and we said to Andy 'Do you want to try a black-rider voice for us?' And so Andy did it.

 

[арве]

Девятая.

Chapter 9 ~ "At the "Green Dragon"
PJ: Now this is a scene that I really did regret cutting out of the theatrical version. And we did it only for momentum reasons, because... I just love it. I love the song. Fran actually wrote this song for the boys to sing.
FW: We did alter it a little, probably to the dismay of some of the Fans. We played with it, we had a little bit of fun.
PJ: It's a chance to see the Hobbits in their true essence, in their true environment before the adventure begins. And it also uses these other Hobbits to- you know, with their typical kind of paranoid, suspicious rumour-mongering.
It's a Hobbit-trade that's very, very dominant in the books and another aspect to the books that we found difficult to incorporate in the film. But this is the scene that we shot that sort of gives us the feeling that Hobbits are gossipy and you know, they love little stories and they're always suspicious of the outside world and all those other kinds of things that make Hobbits very cute.
And I love the way that Frodo reacts to those sort of adventures there.
FW: But in the end, why it didn't survive in the theatrical cut was because there is only so much time you can take establishing Hobbiton before you really move your plot ahead. And we felt we were lingering there too long. And it wasn't furthering the story for us so it didn't stay.

 

[арве]

Десятая.

Chapter 10 ~ "A Shadow of the Past"
PJ: Bag End was obviously an exterior set on the location on the farm. And then this was the studio, when Frodo comes in the door.
This is actually a case where we changed the time-line in the book. I think, from memory, 17 years goes past in the book from the time that Gandalf leaves to find out about the Ring to the time that he arrives back in Hobbiton, to warn Frodo that this is Sauron's Ring. And in our movie we felt that 17 years was just too long a time. So we reduced it to it seeming like a few months had gone by.
FW: Well, for those who know the book: You know that there are fairly leisurely time-frames in the Fellowship of the Ring and this was not a luxury that we could indulge in the making of the film. We had to compress the time-frames in order to get the story on the way.
PJ: I like the idea that Gandalf had been sleeping in the... under ditches and in hedge-rows and had this sort of- like this tramp-like existence, trying to get himself right across Middle-earth in a six or seven week journey to get... to rush back to Bag End. So this is why we had Gandalf looking so dishevelled.
The letters on the Ring are a CG-effect. There was a lot of debate about whether they're on the outside of the Ring or the inside of the Ring and we carefully read the book and we found out that it's actually both. We actually really struggled with figuring out a way that we could get the entire poem into the movie. And in this we failed. We don't have the whole poem in there, we just have this version which is the last verse of the poem. But we did actually film the entire thing at the council of Elrond where we had Hugo Weaving saying the entire poem, but we ultimately cut that out of the movie.
FW: You know, in the book you can enter into the sort of psychological horror of the Ring and it doesn't need any, you know, augmentation. But in a film it's less easy to sell that and so we knew that it needed some kind of literal voice in the movie. It needed to interact to some degree with the characters. So we thought long and hard about what kind of voice it would have and ultimately it's obviously Sauron's voice. And we worked with an actor, an English actor, Alan Howard to develop a rather chilling edition of Sauron's voice.
PJ: This is one of those nightmare-scenes that has to do such a lot in a little space of time, basically set up the entire back-story. And we kept struggling with exactly what to say and how to say it and we ended up filming this scene three times. And the final scene that you're watching now is like an amalgam of all three versions. So there's some shots that were done while we were shooting the movie and then there's some shots that were done after the completion of the shoot.
Ian and Elijah came back to New Zealand and then they came back later to do the scene yet one last time. And we put some ? too, so the whole scene has been a bit of a Frankenstein-number of each of those three filming occasions.
FW: Do you remember, Pete, when we didn't have a prologue and all of the prologue-information was in this scene. That was-
PJ: Yeah. It really was longer, it was about three times as long.
FW: It was untenable. It was-
PJ: We had all the flashbacks to the last alliance, didn't we.
FW: Yeah.
PJ: All the flashbacks to Elrond and Isildur.
PB: The making of the Ring.
FW: And Ian did about... He did about seven pages.
PJ: That's right, without the prologue, this was the scene that was gonna give all that information. Yeah.
FW: Yes.
PB: But I have to say, a few shots, that's three times, Pete. We wrote it about 50 different times. Fifty different versions.
FW: We suffered.
PB: We did suffer.
FW: When we actually put the prologue back into the film, it lightened the scene and it enabled us to strip it down and keep it relatively manageable in terms of its information and content. It became for us a scene that wasn't so much overburdened with information as one where we could play more of the power of the Ring and the presence of Sauron.
PJ: There's great stuff in the book that we just couldn't put into the movie. And I've always loved the concept that when Gandalf leaves Bag End he goes and joins up with Aragorn and the two of them hunt Gollum down. And so we've got this little remnant which is Gollum being tortured but we never could obviously do the bit where Aragorn and Gandalf actually track Gollum down. But it's a neat idea. That would have been great, to have been able to squeeze it into the film somehow.
This is one of those situations where you're trying to explain the most obvious thing to people. You know, why doesn't Frodo just give the Ring to Gandalf? Why can't Gandalf just take it? You know, it's those little bits of common sense that audiences always come up with, that you've got to cover yourself when you're doing the movie. And it's in the book, of course, too, the fact that Gandalf would be kind of... You know, he would be a horrific version of Sauron if he ever got hold of the Ring himself.
It's fun just to feel Gandalf's temptation, though. The energy of this scene is like in deliberate contrast to the book as well, because the departure from Hobbiton is a very leisurely affair in the book. And we wanted to give the film a bit of heat. So that's why we deliberately kind of cranked it up through here to really try to light a fire under the story at this stage. Because one of the problems with adapting the book was always the fact of how you get a bit of momentum and heat under this opening section.
PB: This next piece here where Ian is speaking is actually something that Ian wanted, a piece that he found in the book that we decided we couldn't- We couldn't afford to go there. And this is something he really, really wanted to do. And it worked beautifully.
PJ: You remember a really early version of the script? We also introduced Merry and Pippin in this scene, do you remember that?
PB: Yes.
FW: Yeah.
PJ: We- I think we had all three Hobbits... Sam wasn't outside the window in that version. He was listening- He was eavesdropping behind a door. And then when Gandalf like pulls the door open, all three of them, Sam and Merry and Pippin, all kind of fall onto the floor, tumble on the floor. And that was how we were gonna get Merry and Pippin into it at some point. And then we decided to so separate them and have them, but later.
FW: Well, they were well known? in these big gaps of time, you know. That was seventeen years between Gandalf's ? and things like this to Bag End. We knew this and yet we felt that that was far too leisurely. You know, that we did feel- And that Frodo takes his time. He's given his mission by Gandalf and he takes another six months (..) thinking about it. And it just, again... That tense did completely undermine any sense of dramatic urgency in the storytelling. So we couldn't honour that part of the book at all. We had to really compress and accelerate the time-frames for the movie.
PB: So the main push here really was to get Frodo on the road as quickly as possible and get them doing exactly what they're doing, setting out right now.
PJ: Always the most difficult part of the movie is- Because the travel and the journey and all this detail is such an important part in the book. It's so evocative. And in the movie, there is only a certain amount of it you can have before audiences start to just, you know, feel less... You know, all that. So we really limited ourselves to three shots of them walking. We obviously shot a whole lot more than three and we chose our favourite three.
Now people apparently claim to have seen a car driving along the hill in these wide-shots. I have looked very, very hard and I just can't see it. I don't know what people are talking about.
There's a line in the book where Sam says: 'If I go one more step, that would be further than I've ever done before.' I just thought it would be nice to build a scene around. So I asked Philippa and Fran to write something.
PB: I think those pages actually literally went out about eleven o'clock the night before the day we shot them.
PJ: We squeezed it in. We weren't supposed to film it, because nobody even knew about it. But we managed to find an hour at the end of the day and we only shot a couple of takes.
FW: Scenes like that don't hit the schedule, do they?
PJ: They don't. The schedule- No, the studio didn't even know that...
FW: Nobody knows they're there...
 

[арве]

Одиннадцатая.

Chapter 11 ~ "The Passing of the Elves"
PJ: You just gotta be, bang them up the day before and just goes and try and squeeze them in.
FW: I hate, as it is distributed after lunch.
PJ: This was a sequence that we deleted from the theatrical version of the film and it’s actually a sequence in which a couple of stills, a couple of photographic images have appeared in lots of books and magazines and I’m sure, I’m sure people that were paying attention wondered when they saw the movie just the fact that these shots were not actually seen and Frodo in the tree was, was quite commonly appeared in magazines at the time of the film’s release, and another shot that I saw a lot of in magazines was this one here of Frodo and Sam peering over the log – so here you get this finally, see where these shots came from.
We liked the idea of this little episode from the – it’s sort of from the book, it’s obviously in the book they stop and they talk to this elves that they encountered walking through the Shire, but in the movie we never filmed the conversation, but we did want to at least get the feeling of the sadness of the elves leaving middle earth.
It’s something, that we encounter again, when we reach Rivendell, but we initially didn’t intend for Rivendell to be the first time that we encounter elves. And I liked just this little moment, it’s very slight, but it, it just acknowledges the fact that Hobbits, which are very comfort-loving creatures are now having to to sleep rough. They’re not in their own beds, something that Frodo manages much better than Sam, who really is not used to this sort of lifestyle in the slightest.
These were amongst the very first shots we ever did. We, I think, this particular shot of the boys by the campfire was shot on our third day of shooting.
 

[Addams]

арве,

Я когда-нибудь рассказывал, как голос Галадриэли спас мне жизнь?
Я был в коме и услышал ее пение.
И тогда я очнулся и сказал ей замолчать.

[Sange]

Сообщение от арве

Ну вот... и взаимоотношения Трандуила и Гали - тоже ни фига не поняла (только милым полюбовалась, гы)

Я когда-нибудь тебе говорил, что голос Галадриэли спас мне жизнь? Я находился в коме и услышал, как она поёт. Так что я проснулся и сказал ей заткнуться .
 

[арве]

Двенадцатая (на сегодня - последняя).

Chapter 12 ~ "Saruman the White"
FW: Where was that shot, Pete?
PJ: That was down in the South Island about past Glenorchy. This is almost completely CG, this shot, everything is digital in this one – the horse, the rider, the trees – everything. And here we have Christopher Lee in his first entrance in the movie, it’s, that was always a great thrill walking with Christopher, because I’d always been a fan of the old Hammer Horror movies and, you know, working with something like that you’d admired for 30 years is really fun, a lot of fun.
We ended up shooting a lot of this dialogue twice, this is a bit like the situation in Bagend, where it’s all plot explanatory stuff, it’s exposition with dialogue and we shot the scenes with Gandalf and Saruman talking - both, the exterior scene in the garden and when they go into the chamber, we shot it early in our shoot and by the time we put the film together we wanted to have different information and so we basically had to get them back to New Zealand and re-shoot virtually the entire conversation, because what they were saying now was different, we just simply wanted them to convey different information to the audience.
FW: Well, part of that was identifying Sauron as, as a - giving him an identity separate to the character, who appears in the prologue and so we specifically had Chris Lee talk about him as “The Eye” and what and how it’s operated dramatically.
PJ: Yeah, the Eye it’s the bane of my life.
FW: The Eye was such a horror to dramaturge.
PJ: To have your central villain being nothing more than a flaming eyeball is a little bit of a problem. Of course, what we did is we elevated Saruman in a sense to the villainlary role and get the eye relatively a minor player.
FW: It’s just a hard thing to bring to cinema, it’s a wonderful notion, but it works very much, you know, it’s rather a novel form than as a storytelling device for cinema.
PB: We had a lot of problem deciding what Saruman, what is Saruman’s agenda and we played it in several different ways. We started off with the concept, that Saruman was looking to Gandalf as an ally to go for the ring and use it against Sauron, we also tried a more subtle version of that, where you’re not quite sure, but eventually we decided to stay close to the books I think and to reveal Saruman attempting to take the ring for himself as he does in the books a little later on.
PJ: The sequence, where the wizards fight was always a, it was a problem for me, because I really don’t like wizards in movies, I don’t like the idea of old guys firing blue lightning out of their fingertips and doing all the usual wizardry type stuff. So I thought that the, the most interesting fight would be one, where we strip away the magic to some, to a large degree and we simply see two old guys beating the hell out each other. I thought, that would at least be kind of humorous.
Uhm, so that’s basically what we did, we kept the fight as physical as possible and the idea was, old bones and bodies cracking onto the marble, that sort of you can almost feel the bruises starting to form. Of course, one doesn’t need to be a rocket scientist to guess, that not a lot of this is actually Ian Mc Kellen and Christopher Lee.
The great thing with doing stunt fights with guys with long hair and beards is that you can disguise a stunt man relatively well.
FW: I think even the stuntmen sustained some injuries from that scene…
PJ: Yeah, one of them cracked the hip badly on the side of a trampoline, when they, they were gonna (ran) on a trampoline and they fell short and actually hit the middle part of the trampoline in a badly hit.

 

[арве]

Девочки, спасибо за перевод .

[MoLee]

Сообщение от арве

Девочки, а ауди... к ВКБК дальше выкладывать? Или пока не надо?

Конечно, мы хотим приобщиться к источнику вдохновения

[арве]

А меня приобщите?

[Sange]

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А меня приобщите?

С 7-ой части?